[00:00:00] Intro: We’re saying goodbye to the rigid numbers and strict budgets, and putting relationships back at the heart of personal finance. This is more than a podcast, it’s an invitation to reimagine your money story and journey with us through a landscape of intuitive strategies and abundance. Join a community that nurtures transformative financial mindsets.

[00:00:25] Welcome to Intuitive Finance. I’m your host, Dylan Bain.

[00:00:36] Dylan Bain: Hello ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Intuitive Finance with Dylan Bain. I’ve got another interview coming at you. This time it is Demetra Gray. Demetra is a writer whose outspokenness has gotten her into many rounds of trouble. She lives on a little island off the west coast of Canada with her husband Jordan, and shares about her life. She’s also the host of a wonderful podcast called the Demetra Gray show. And you can find her at DemetraGray.com or on Instagram @DemetraGray__.

[00:01:05] Now ladies and gentlemen, when we rebranded from Fiscally Savage into Intuitive Finance, my goal was to create something more inviting, and for us to really talk about relationships and truth. And I have to say, when Demetra agreed to be on the podcast, I was overjoyed, because she is one of the people who has really taught me about being able to find what’s true for me and be able to live that out loud. So without further ado, welcome Demetra to the podcast, and we’re going to have a great interview. Thanks for listening.

[00:01:37] / Demetra Gray, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:40] Demetra Gray: Thank you.

[00:01:42] Dylan Bain: Fantastic. I’ve been following your work for a couple of years at this point, and I’m super excited to have this conversation. But I would like to kind of start with your work on intuition and talking about trusting yourself, and letting that guide you through life. Can you just give us like the 30,000 foot view of that in your life as it has brought you to where you’re at?

[00:02:03] Demetra Gray: Well, it’s interesting because actually, that’s like the quality that’s been most shaken up for me in the last couple years. But so — I can tell you how I did relate to it and then how I relate to it now. So, I have always had this sort of deep faith in life and in trusting life. And I think that that largely comes from a trust in ourselves, and a trust in ourselves to handle whatever life gives to us. I think — yeah, for me, you might know my younger brother was in a car accident when I was 19 and he was 17. And that was kind of like, the first most traumatic event of my life. And then I went through a lot of losses after that. And it was early on to realize that nobody really knows anything at all. Like, I think when I was younger, I was like waiting to get to be an adult and get to this place where like, people know what’s going on and like, all these adults older than me, they have it figured out. And I’m going to like, get to this place where they — I understand life and they understand life.

[00:03:12] And when that happened so young and — you know, I was in hospitals for a long time. My brother has a brain injury, and I had left university, and I was just in this really lost place and just being like, oh, nobody knows anything. And like I could die, and my brother could have died. Anyone could die at any moment. And what is the point of anything? And I started listening — instead of listening to these external sources of what society expected from me and my parents expected from me, I was like, well, if nothing has any point — was kind of how I felt at the time — then I’m just going to listen to me. Like, if I don’t have much time to live, then I better live in a way that I actually want to be living. So I started just listening to what I felt was true.

[00:04:05] And I’ve always had this sort of connection to, you could call it my intuition, you could call it truth, you could call it some sort of spiritual connection. Any way you want to frame it. But I could tell when some — and I think all people feel this, but I think it gets really buried down. And so I would be able to tell things like, oh this relationship isn’t right for me anymore. And I think most people might feel it, but then they question and they question. And I started very young feeling that and listening. And just being like, I know that this is the next thing for me. And yeah I mean, the next 11, 12 years of my life since then has been — it led me on a big journey of a lot of different places to live and people and jobs. And yeah, I would say that’s still the way I relate to it now.

[00:04:56] As you’ve seen in my posting, my whole journey led me accidentally into a spiritual cult. And so I mean, I think that’s the foundational thing that gets shaken up in that, right? It’s like, your trust. For a long time, it was like, how did I — how can I trust myself at all if my intuition led me to that place? And what I’ve realized is that there’s nothing actually wrong with my intuition. It’s just that I think we have to develop this discernment of, we can be tricked. And like, there are some people are not good people.

[00:05:26] Dylan Bain: 100%.

[00:05:27] Demetra Gray: Having intuition doesn’t protect us from the world.

[00:05:30] Dylan Bain: Exactly. And there are people, there’s an entire industry of people who will like, use those intuition cues to suck you into a place, and then what they do is they create a bunch of static.

[00:05:41] I want to go back to one thing that you said ’cause I thought it was just beautiful when you were saying like, your brother’s in this accident when you’re 19. You’re suddenly like, oh my God, you know, what’s the right answer here? I imagine your parents are grieving, right? They’re grieving the loss of the man he could be. You’re grieving the loss of who your brother could be in all those possibilities that come closing down. And as younger children, we are still children, and on so many different levels there having to come to terms with the fact that my mom and dad don’t know what to do. Yeah, I feel like there’s such a longing for the “right answer” in what is the right thing to do here? And I see this a lot in my coaching practice where people come in and they’re like, tell me what to do. I can’t tell you what to do. I can tell you what might work, but you — we got to find this yourselves.

[00:06:29] Talk to me a little bit more about becoming uncomfortable, like the comfortability between the idea that there’s something certain out there, and the idea that there may be isn’t something certain out there.

[00:06:41] Demetra Gray: These are some big questions, don’t they?

[00:06:43] Dylan Bain: Did you expect me to come in soft?

[00:06:48] Demetra Gray: No, and it’s — so I mean, these are the things that I’m currently really sitting with a lot. I think we all want that certainty, right? I’ve been reading this book called Cultish, which is like about just language in our society today. Like language. Just advertising language, just like, all the language that we hear in our society all the time. And something that she, the author wrote about which I found really interesting, was that she said how this sort of generation, millennials, around like, people who are becoming more of adults now, grew up for the first time really being told like, you can do absolutely anything you want to do, you can be anything you want to be. There’s like, endless options, there’s the whole internet, you can see everyone doing everything, and you have all of these choices.

[00:07:38] And then you get to be an adult, and then you’re kind of like, it’s so overwhelming to have so many choices and be told that you can be absolutely anything, you can do anything, you can go anywhere, like —

[00:07:49] Dylan Bain: Exactly.

[00:07:50] Demetra Gray: — that often people then get like, then when we meet someone who is so certain, and they claim like, I’m certain about life and I know the way that life is. We’re so drawn to that, because often people who are in that place feel just like, I just want someone to like, tell me what to eat, what to do, what to, how to work out, what to you know, just like, what to believe. Just tell me how to be so I don’t have to decide in all these options.

[00:08:17] And nothing’s certain, right? And that can be really destabilizing. And at the same time, there is a certainty in like, the reality of life that we live in, here as humans together. And I think that a lot of my life has been navigating this place, and after my brother was in his accident, it wasn’t that simple. So, just like oh, he’s in the accident. Now we grieve. It was like years. I mean, that’s still kind of is in this place, but it was like he was in a coma and it was like, is he going to wake up? Is he not going to wake up? Is he going to die any day now? And it was like months on end of this constant, like — he could die at any second. And like, is he stable, and what’s his brain doing, and all of these things. And so I got a very quick schooling in yeah, everything’s uncertain all the time. And that was when I got like, I started my sort of spiritual journey. I got really into yoga, and I like, went down all these paths. I think what I’m currently trying to find is this place of like, I think in ways I’ve still been searching for this certainty like, where’s the person who’s going to tell me what to do?

[00:09:26] You can think about it even in terms of health. I go to like, a natural wellness person. I’m like, is this person kind of crazy? They’re like, an alternative person. Maybe I should listen to the actual doctor. And then I go to the actual doctor, and they’re so disembodied and like, totally — no, I’m like, I can’t trust you either. I can’t trust that. Like, I can’t trust anyone. How do we know?

[00:09:46] And so we have to kind of, I think, come back to this place of, I can trust me, and that doesn’t mean I’ll never make mistakes. Like, we have all of life to make mistakes and learn and grow. I don’t know if that answers your question.

[00:10:01] Dylan Bain: I mean, it always brings up more questions than answers, right? Like, that’s the best part about it. I mean, there is a certain level of growth that occurs where we get to, yes, everything — because my path was very similar of saying, go to college, and once you get that piece of paper, you’re set for life. So I went to college having no idea why I was there, got my piece of paper, and then I was like, well, now what? They’re like, well, get a job. And I was like, how do you do that? I spent four years getting this piece of paper. You told me that there would be a job waiting for me. And it wasn’t until I was just like, no, no, no, I’m done listening to what the approved path is. I’m going to do my own thing that it actually worked out.

[00:10:36] But that longing for certainty and the discomfort like, I feel like that’s where, you know, a lot of these cults will come in. I mean, you can see this in the medical community. You already brought up alternative care and I loved your statement about disembodied doctors. You come in and you’re like, oh my God, you know, my guts are hurting. I don’t know what’s going on there. Like yeah, here’s a pill, you know, statistically you’re fine. Have a good day. And you’re like, but the statistics don’t make me warm at night, man.

[00:11:02] Demetra Gray: Yeah.

[00:11:02] Dylan Bain: So when you’re going through these different journeys, because I know in — you know, some of your writings, you’ve talked about, you know, getting so close to like, checking the approved box and being like, this isn’t right. And there’s a part of me internally that’s like, oh my God, like why? But there’s another part of me that’s like, wow, I wish I had that level of bravery.

[00:11:24] Talk to me about the polls on that and how the juxtaposition between that guides you through your decisionmaking. The idea of like, oh there’s a certainty of, I’m going to check this box, right? I’m going to do the thing everyone told me to do. Get a license, get a credential, whatever, versus this doesn’t feel true to me. And I don’t know what’s on the other side, but that’s the path that I feel drawn to, not from a place of fear, but from a place of opportunity.

[00:11:51] Demetra Gray: I think that it gets easier the more you do it, and I’m glad. Whenever I talk to people about this, I feel so lucky that I started as young as I did, you know, and I think life just sort of forced me into that, but the more that I find that I have done that, the more evidence I gather that that is the right thing to do, right? And so, like, when, for example, I left university four different times. Like, I went to four different schools. I quit all of them. And the last one I quit a semester before I would have graduated. And so it was like, over whatever, six years, I had been to four different schools. And everyone was like, you are insane. And I was like, I’m insane. Just like, do one more semester. Finish it. Just like, get the thing. But I was like, I’m never gonna use this. I have changed my major like, eight times. But I was in a history major, my last one. And I was like, for a while I played with, maybe I’ll go get my PhD in history. And it was like, I’m never gonna do that. What am I gonna do with it? I’m gonna go be a professor. Like, that’s not me.

[00:12:56] And I can look back at each time I quit school. It was like, a really big lesson for me because like the third time that I quit. And it was this feeling of like, I’m not going to be here when I have no idea what I’m doing, I have no idea what I want to do, it’s pointless, like I’m not — and so I was like, I’m just going to take a semester off, I’m going to take a step back. And what I ended up doing at that time, I was 22, I think. I was teaching yoga, and I ended up meeting someone, and it turned into this opportunity, and I ended up opening my own yoga studio. And so at 22, I owned a yoga studio, and I was in charge of managing it. And I had to learn like all of these things like making a website, making an email list, all these different tasks. And I ended up getting sick of it and selling it close to a year later.

[00:13:42] And then I like, traveled and I did all these things. And then I ended up going back to school, but it was like quitting that last time. It was like, look, every other time I’ve quit, it’s led me to something really beautiful that I would never have planned or guessed would happen. And so I started to develop this trust, like I just started to notice that every time I like leapt off the cliff and I was like, this is terrifying. I ended up in a place where I had these experiences that I just never ever would have had if I had stuck to this sort of path that everybody says.

[00:14:20] I honestly think I still have this teeny part of me that is like, why can’t you just be like a normal person, just like get a normal job, do normal, you know? Like, I look at people that I know, especially like extended family members, and I’m like, they have such a normal life, you know? Like, they have normal friends that they were friends with from high school and call it — and they have like, what I imagined to be this normal set path that makes sense. And it was just never my path. But yeah. But I never could have done the other thing. It never would have been fulfilling. And I think every choice that I’ve made, I know that when I die, even if I died tomorrow, I will be very content with the way that I’ve lived my life. Like, every choice that I’ve made, it’s been very important to me that I’m making a choice that I can live with, and that I like, reach not just the end of like — we have to live with ourselves in every moment, right? But I also like, that I reach the end of my life and feel like yeah, like, I’m proud of all of these decisions I made were the right ones for me, and like, I didn’t do them based on what other people thought I should do.

[00:15:34] Dylan Bain: Amazing. You know, when you’re talking about the other people with normal lives, it reminds me of when I first came back to my hometown. My whole plan was to live and die my entire life in Southeastern Wisconsin. Then the recession hit, and I found a woman who was like, not going to stay there with me. And so I followed her overseas. And when I came back to my hometown, I realized that I had outgrown it. Everybody else that, you know, all the people, all my friends from high school, they all married each other. Then they got divorced. They all stood up to move one person over, sat back down, remarried and — but they have these like, huge roots in this area where they’re like so rooted to the to the city and its history and everything else like that.

[00:16:15] And so there’s a part of me that’s like a kid at a candy shop, like looking in the window being like, oh, I wish I had that. There’s another part of me that’s like, BS. But I’ve — whenever I tell them the life I’ve led since I’ve left there, as if I’m telling them that I slay dragons and that I ride unicorns, like they’re like, oh my God, that’d be amazing. It was like, well, I sold my car. I sold my house. I sold everything. And I got on a plane and just went, I hope I have a job when I land.

[00:16:43] Demetra Gray: Yeah, it’s that trust. I mean, it’s — there was a point in time I was very, very close. It was around the time that I had owned the yoga studio and I was young, and I was dating a boy who I really, really loved and he had been my brother’s best friend and we had this really sweet, loving relationship. There was nothing wrong with it. And we were talking about maybe getting married, and maybe like getting a house together. And there was this moment where like, I was like, maybe I could live in small town Pennsylvania forever and I can get a cute house, and I can have some animals, and I can teach yoga, and I can marry this man who is gonna like — you know, he’s like a contractor, and builds things. And this could be my life. And it was like, it was so nice on paper and like, the inside of me just wanted to like wither away and die. And it was just like, I can’t do that to myself.

[00:17:42] Dylan Bain: Amazing. Amazing. Well, and so many levels, so much of your story like, it resonates really deeply with me because of how much it rhymes. My mother always encouraged me to like, do the safe thing, Dylan, like just stick it out. Like you, what you have isn’t bad and just saying like — but I’m not content. I’m not — I meant for more than this. I want to write epic stories and tell epic tales. And just like, chafing against that. But at the same time, like there’s this cacophony of family members and friends, people who I believe legitimately care about me, who are telling me like, don’t put us through this like, don’t jump off the cliff and build a plane on the way down.

[00:18:23] So you had that opportunity. When you look back at it, was it a situation where you’re like, oh my God, this is too comfortable? Or was it a situation of like no, this just didn’t feel true. Like what — what led you to say thanks, but no thanks to what anyone else would say was like the perfect win?

[00:18:40] Demetra Gray: I mean, I’ve done that so many times. I think that we all have this inner voice that often wants more or knows that more is possible, and everybody else is so trained to not listen to that voice, and they’re like, terrified of their own voice because it might change their life or blow it up or whatever. And so everyone else is like, no, don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. It’s like — it’s before I met Jordan, my husband, I was in another relationship that was great. We had been best friends for like, eight years, and it was wonderful, and I felt really in love. And I just felt like this feeling of like, this isn’t enough. Like, I want someone who matches me. I want to be inspired by someone. I’m tired of feeling like I’m like, the inspiring one who like, does all these cool weird things and like, tries to drag other people along. I was like, I don’t want that.

[00:19:32] But it was scary to feel like, who am I to assume that like, I could have the most of what I want in someone in my life? Like, and when I look at my life now, I feel this kind of satisfaction of like, every time that I wasn’t sure, and every time that everybody else was like, don’t do these things, I ended up here, which is a really beautiful place to be — like where I currently am. And it’s like, we don’t get to that place, I think, where we’re like, so satisfied, unless we listen again and again and again to that thing where it’s like you said, like, it’s just like, jump off and just be like, okay, I hope something catches me.

[00:20:12] And I think what that trust is, it’s actually the trust in ourselves. Like we can, we feel like we’re trusting life. And I think we do, you know, maybe people have different spiritual beliefs of like God or what might be there with them. But it’s also this faith in ourselves to be like, I can make this choice because I know that no matter what happens, I will react well. Like, I will handle it well. I trust that if everything falls apart like, I still have me, and I like me. And I like me because I listen to me, and I like, teach myself that I’m worth listening to. And so since I have this sort of relationship with myself, that no matter what happens, I’m okay.

[00:20:59] And I think that’s where that comes from, being able to do that. And I think it’s learned by practice. That’s what people don’t want to hear. Because the first time is the hardest time. And then the first few times are the hardest, because you have to develop this sort of evidence that like, oh, when I’m absolutely terrified and I’m afraid that if I do this, the whole world is going to end. Oh, it doesn’t end. And actually, wow, look where it led me. But if you don’t do it ever, it’s easy to create all these stories.

[00:21:27] Dylan Bain: Yeah, I mean, the stories of like, why we did what we did, right? We go back and we recontextualize it. I remember in 2014, my principal — when I was a teacher at the time, my principal calls me in and asks me to commit fraud. And when I said no, she threatened my job and used my kids. What kind of fraud? She wanted me to go back and change grades so that the graduation records would look right. Because we had had a hundred percent graduation rate and my class was required. So if these students who earned their F’s in my class, if they failed, they wouldn’t graduate and our graduation rate would be tarnished and then we would get punished by cutting funding. And I told her no, and her exact words were to me, jobs are hard to come by in this town, and maybe you should think about what type of man your daughter needs you to be.

[00:22:11] Demetra Gray: A liar?

[00:22:13] Dylan Bain: Well, in her mind, she was trying to tell me like, oh, you need to be a provider. You need to hold on to this job for her. My second daughter wasn’t around yet. It was just my oldest. But I remember going home, I put my daughter to bed. I actually called in sick to my third job that night. And I got real drunk because I didn’t know what else to do. So that just seemed like the obvious thing to do. So I got real drunk, and I was looking at out my back window to this drainage ditch that was my backyard. It was literally a storm drainage ditch. And I was thinking of like, there’s gotta be more. There’s just got to be more. I’m better than this. I’m worth more than this. I — it just like, it was the first time in my life I kind of felt like I was like hatching out of an egg of like, no, we’re not doing this anymore. And the next day I walked in and I told my principal, I said, I’m not doing that. And she just sucks her teeth and you’re making a bad decision. And I was like, and furthermore, you can go fuck yourself. And those words came out of my mouth before I had any clue they were even there.

[00:23:11] I told my wife Dominique, I was like, I think I just quit my job today. And she was like, what are we going to do? Like she freaked out. And I was like, I don’t know, but I’m done betting on everyone else. I’m done betting on the system. I’m done betting on this principal. I’m done betting on everything else. I’m betting on me because I know I’m going to pay off. And I remember my mother called me like three days later. And she’s like, go back and talk to the principal, apologize. You were hungover, like, you can salvage this. And I was like, no, even if I could, I’m not doing it. And I look back at that, it was like, what a leap of faith, because I had no backup, no plan, no nothing. And then look where it’s brought me, right? It’s brought me to this conversation with you.

[00:23:53] This is a direct result of me saying, the man my daughter needs me to be is a man of integrity. That integrity started with being integrous with myself. And so like, that is a huge part of like, this conversation to me, it’s like, when I got to a point where I was like, oh, I don’t know what else to do. You know, you and Jordan’s work walked into my life. And it was like, oh wait, you can do that? You can just — you were speaking to something that I’d experienced, but I didn’t have words for and the idea that like, oh, there is this intuition. You can trust yourself. And I put all my cards on the table. My first thing was like, this is utter bullshit. This idea of being like open to the universe, like this sounded so woo woo. And I was like, is this a cult? Like I literally actually had that like, is this a cult? It’s a good question to ask. And I feel like —

[00:24:43] But that’s also been the thing of like, even in this podcast of like, opening myself up and be like, okay, I’ve done 80 episodes. I want to do some interviews. I asked 13 people, 13 people said yes, I expected six at most. So like, being open and being right with myself has brought so much more to me. But at the same time, I don’t believe in things like the law of attraction, right? I don’t believe that I could just sit, think, and grow rich, you know? There’s a work component to that as well.

[00:25:10] Demetra Gray: Yeah, and I love that story because it’s so, like that to me, it says a lot about the man that you are and like, the type of person that you are. Because a lot of people in that moment, like, their job is threatened. There’s this like, chance to just do this thing that no one will ever find out about. But it’s like what I was talking about before. You have to live with that then. And I think that there’s something else you’re speaking to there that’s really important and like, that I think that there is this sort of sense of right and wrong, and this sense of integrity. And that’s something I’ve been that I’ve always had, and I really have been sitting with a lot in this last year of my life. It’s just like, there’s something in that that not all people have, and it is something that I think is worth protecting. It’s sort of like the, like the honesty and the innocence. I think it’s innocence in a way too — it’s just like this innocence of life and like, this sense of what is right and what is honest. And it’s been a big wake up call for me to realize that like, I think I always thought people were that way, but it’s like, actually maybe, I don’t know what percentage of people are what way. But there’s certainly people like the principal who like, do — just be like, and it doesn’t bother them. Or maybe it bothers them, but they don’t care as much, like — and then there’s people who don’t — aren’t bothered at all and they just lie all the time and it’s like —

[00:26:40] Dylan Bain: Those are sociopaths.

[00:26:41] Demetra Gray: Yeah. But I think it makes sense to me that like, you have gotten to where you are based on that quality of just being like, no I’m not doing that, and watch me like, trust myself and do something because I’m not gonna be that kind of person.

[00:26:59] Dylan Bain: Yeah, well. And I also think that there’s a huge component of once you start choosing you, everyone else starts choosing you, too. Right after that, after I told my principal where she’d go stick it, I actually — she sent one of her minions, the vice principal, down to talk to me. And she sat me down, and she was like, we have to be flexible, and like, we all make compromises. And I was like, what compromise, what was your first compromise? It was amazing because that was such a — for me, I was in such an embodied state of like, groundedness of like, no, I’m not moving. I’m a rock. That question, again, it came out of my mouth, and I watched her go through all the stages of grief, right across her face. And I was like, oh my God, your first compromise was not leaving this town. And I asked her, I was like, have you ever thought about living outside of Flagstaff? And she just got up and walked out of my room.

[00:27:48] Demetra Gray: Oh my God. That’s when you knew you were meant to be a coach.

[00:27:54] Dylan Bain: Yeah, and I was like, what? At that point, my sole focus was I wanted to be somebody who counted. I wanted to be a decisionmaker, so I was going for the be in the room where it happens. But that sense of like, asking the next question of like doing the experiment. And it’s funny because even in my corporate job as an auditor, that’s what I do all day long of like, what’s the next question? What’s the next thing? What’s the next experiment? And as I’ve planted my flag more, I’ve earned more money. I become more powerful and more sought after, you know?

[00:28:24] And it sounds like, you know, throughout your journey, that was a very similar thing of like, no, I’m going to do what’s right for me. And then, you know, there was that one incident where you had the person brought you into a cult because there was still a thirst for certainty. Would you be comfortable talking about what it’s like waking up out of that experience?

[00:28:44] Demetra Gray: Oh man, it was really rough. I mean, I think like, not just the cult, but there’s also like, I mean, it’s cult-ish. A lot of things are cult-ish today. A lot of the New Age like, I’ve been really involved in the New Age world. It was the first thing I found after my brother’s accident happened, and I told like, I went really into yoga and being a yoga teacher. And I actually had this moment where I left entirely like, I quit the studio, and I went off to Greece to do like, social justice kind of stuff, and I just like, I don’t want anything to do with this world at all.

[00:29:21] But then I like, got pulled back in, and I think it’s been quite tricky to — there were a lot of beliefs I picked up along the way like, throughout the last 10 years of my life, and especially the last 5 years that were very, you know, like, you’re 100 percent responsible for everything that happens to you, you’re the sole creator of your whole entire life, and ways that I had sort of been living and seeing things that I believed, or I believed at least to an extent, like, I think when we get taught these things and we believe these things, our minds start to form around them in a way. Like, then it makes up all our thoughts throughout the day like, we start to have our view, like we’re looking through this particular lens.

[00:30:12] So joining the cult was just sort of — I had already been having these beliefs coming in to my world, but then when I joined, it was like, it was with someone who could manipulate things to, I didn’t know what it was like to be manipulated, I thought I was way too smart to be manipulated, you know, and leaving, I just think that it was like everything shattered entirely, like for a good long time, it was like, I don’t know if any of these things were ever true, because realizing like oh, I’ve just been programmed with these beliefs.

[00:30:51] And being able to see like, kind of the whole web of how all these things get held up, and like, a lot of people use New Age-y beliefs to be abusive to other people, and it gets tricky, because there’s truth in it, too, right? Like, you’ve found some truth, like you said, like, you don’t believe in the law of attraction stuff, but you also have noticed that, like, when you open to life, there’s something that happens in response. And so, I think it’s learning to form our own relationship with these things but being careful to not go to someone who says they have all the answers, and they’re enlightened, and they’ve figured it out, and they’re like, this guru who like, knows. There’s a lot of places to be careful. You’ve probably heard of the book, Women Who Run With the Wolves.

[00:31:42] Dylan Bain: It’s less than 20 feet from me right now.

[00:31:44] Demetra Gray: But something the author of that book says is — I don’t know if it’s in the book or if she it’s just a quote by her, but it’s something like, “Everyone who lives in the forest has to learn that there is always predator and there’s prey.” And I think it’s just an important thing. I didn’t learn it in my life until I learned it very intensely that like, there’s no matter how law of attraction and open we are to — sometimes the more open we are to things, the less discernment we have. The less like, we’re so trusting that then we don’t have any boundaries. And so it’s constantly sort of cultivating this, how can I be open to life, but also be this sort of parent in a way, like a good parent. You’re probably that way with your daughters, right? Like, how do I protect you from things that I know are bad while also letting you be you and like, explore?

[00:32:45] Dylan Bain: Hundred percent. I have a teacher of mine, mentor of mine, who’s fallen into my orbit in the most weird way, and she does a lot with like nature-based therapy. And one of the things she says is that, you can always tell the unnatural by that which is static. And she talks about like, the natural human progressions and how humans interact in this world. And her point is, is that anything that’s dogmatic, anything that’s like, we have found, we have solved the equation is wrong, because the equation isn’t because it’s human, because it’s human experience and humans are of nature, it is a constantly evolving thing. And I think about like that with jobs, you know, my grandfather like, just get a job at a factory! And I was like, grandpa, all the factories are closing. And like, but that was him. That was what was true. That was the answer for him. And my dad was like, you know, get your degree, you get a degree and you’re perfectly fine. And I look at it and I’m like, My degree means next to nothing, it means next to nothing. And so like, that to me is the big marker for even in my own life with the men’s work that I do. I’m mentoring a lot of young men and I’m coaching a lot of young men. It’s interesting to see the people that I used to look up as to as mentors or as leaders.

[00:33:51] It was like where I’ve watched, you know, one of them, and there’s two very specific people in my head. One of them ran into a problem and was like, oh I clearly, I ran into this problem because I refused to change. I had moved into a new level of life and the rules are different. And so now I’m just going to be a student of these new rules. And he is — he has evolved. And it’s like, wow, you’re even more powerful than you were. And the other one, he hit — he had a problem. And then he was like, nope, nope. I’m going to double down on what I, what used to work. And it’s like, you’re going to run into the same wall. We can all watch. We’re all watching you do it. And to me, that was the difference, is that as soon as he ran into this wall, and he was like, I can’t change, I’m going to double down. Everything in that — the whole mood in that group changed. He started finding bypassed people to put in positions of leadership, he started helping people bypass around, you know, it’s the whole thing of like, well, the stages of grief are, I have grief, so acceptance is the end. Just go right there. And it’s like, I’ve been grieving the loss of my brother since I was five. I can assure you that it doesn’t work. Very interesting. That dogmatic piece, I think, is a big takeaway from what you’re talking about.

[00:35:00] Demetra Gray: Yeah, and what’s interesting in what you’re saying there, and like, I think it’s something that’s come up a lot for me is that like, a lot of people will criticize that quality. Like, when you’re saying these two people — a lot of people have said to me, like, it’s a criticism. It’s been this way ever since I first started my business is like, you change your mind so much. That was like a family member said to me right when I began. They were like, I would never hire you. Like, you change your mind all the time. Like, who would ever hire you? And I was like, I was so bothered by it. But then I’ve heard it over and over again. Every so often, someone will come in. I had another person recently come in and she was just like, oh my God, you’re like, now you have a whole new identity — because I was writing about cults. And she was like, now this is just your new identity. And I’ve followed you for so long.

[00:35:50] And like, back four years ago, you were doing this thing with menstrual blood, and now you’re doing this thing. Then you were in this phase. And I was just like, is this supposed to be an insult? Because to me, this is like the point of life. To me it’s like, everything should evolve. And I think that when we might believe what we believe, but then when we’re shown that it’s not true or that there’s a problem with it, I think it’s healthy to then be like, oh, I have to adapt. Like, something is wrong. I need to shift. And to be like, I don’t know everything, and let me just rearrange and just let new parts of me out. I think it’s like, people prefer people to just stay one thing and like, don’t change their mind and just always be this way and certain about this thing. And when they’re shown evidence to the contrary, just like stay — like if you really believed what you believe in, you just stay.

[00:36:52] It’s just so bizarre. ’cause it’s — I think it’s like, to me, when I see people that are willing to shift — and Jordan and I talk about this a lot because it’s like all the people we admire most are that way. Someone I really admire in this way. You might think it’s funny is Robert Plant is my favorite. Led Zeppelin was always my favorite band. And I think about there’s this artist, and maybe it’s because I feel more like an artist in the way that I like, live and create and do things. But like, he had this most successful thing, and he’s been asked so many times like, come back again and play with it like play Led Zeppelin and do a reunion. And he’s just like, no. And he’s done.

[00:37:35] I have still listened to his music and his projects throughout the years. And it’s like, he just continuously does new things and they’re all very different from each other. And he’s just still like exploring like, here’s what I want to explore and it’s not popular anymore. And he was just like, I don’t care. This is what I want to explore. And it’s just like, that means something to me. I think that that is significant.

[00:38:01] Dylan Bain: 100 percent. People who get into that static, I’m always like, have you stopped learning? Do you think that you like, have you finally found it? And I — it’s funny you bring up the menstrual blood thing because that was when Dominique first, my wife, was like, I found this person. She’s really interesting. I was like, okay, I’ll Google that. That was immediately what came up. But I was like, that’s out there.

[00:38:21] Demetra Gray: Crazy?

[00:38:22] Dylan Bain: You know, it’s not that I’m uncomfortable with smearing blood on your face. Like, that’s fine. Like, what a statement.

[00:38:28] Demetra Gray: I was 26.

[00:38:30] Dylan Bain: Yeah, as if that’s a normal thing for people at 26 to do, which is actually probably not wrong, ’cause I’ve actually thought about this a lot of like, you know, watching Traver Boehm, who was on the show a couple weeks ago, and he wrote a book called Man Uncivilized. And he talks about like your cock being medicine. He’s like, man, you have to remember that this is part of your gift in this world. And I’ve watched, you know, having done work with him over the years now. I’ve watched as guys come in and they’re like, wait, yes, I am a sexual being. This is the sex I want to have.

[00:39:02] And then like they go through this phase, and then I’ve watched guys get to the end of that phase and they’re like, but I want to stay in this phase. And so they stop growing, and it’s just like, yeah you know, you’re kind of cringe, right? Whereas the other ones are just like, okay, my cock is medicine, but I also want it to be nourishing. And like, they go through a whole new phase. And then I want it to be relational, right? And then like, the phase that I’ve watched a lot of guys start going into now is the like, I want to be nourished in a way that’s not sexual. And I’ve watched at every one of those stages, people look at me like, you used to be cool. Or we’re like, oh, are you just a blue pill cock now? Like, I’ve seen it all and my whole thing is like, no, actually, you’re the — it’s the exact opposite is true. This man is evolving and is eventually going to get from — go from the like, one of the guys to the mentor phase of life.

[00:39:50] And I think that, you know, particularly for men, that’s something that’s missing. We’re missing a lot of mentors. We’re missing — and we’re really missing elders. And I even see this even in my own father, who’s lived his whole life in southeastern Wisconsin. He’s an amazing man. He’s very powerful. He’s also 69 years old, and breaking down. And he’s still trying to be just one of the guys. And it’s like, dude, you should be an elder at this point. You failed to transition in life. And to me, it’s just like, I’m now limited in how much I can learn. I’m now limited in my relationship and the depth I can have because I’m going to continue growing and I wish you would come with me.

[00:40:25] Demetra Gray: Yeah, we’re all missing elders in that way. It’s so important. I recently met a man who I’m working with. He’s a homeopath, but I feel so lucky to have met him. He must be in his late seventies, I’d imagine. But he spent a lot of time like, living with indigenous people. And he has this white hair that’s like, in braids, and it’s long. And he’s just — he has this like, embodiment that you’re just like, oh. And then it’s like, to imagine that we did at one point, we would have been surrounded like, we would have had so many examples of that kind of wisdom is just like — and I think people are around. You know, there are older people around, but we don’t value them in that way. And it’s really sad.

[00:41:10] Dylan Bain: Are you familiar with the work of Steve Jenkins at all?

[00:41:12] Demetra Gray: No, I don’t think so.

[00:41:13] Dylan Bain: Oh, he has a massive story. He talks a lot about grief and about how we live in a death phobic society. Every time I listen to anything from him, I need a couple of days. But he talks about how as a culture, when we made the train, when we made the journey over the Atlantic to come here, we left our elders at home. And so that meant that our young men who then became old men had no one to teach them how to move to the next stage of life.

[00:41:38] Demetra Gray: Wow.

[00:41:39] Dylan Bain: And so, now we have this phantom limb as a society where, like, we as a society can never get to a point where, like, we have enough or that we focus on life. It’s go, go, go focused on production and everything because we don’t have elders to go, I’ve learned over my life that you should actually just go for beers with your friends. Or elders enough to be able to sit down with young men and be like, when you get married, do not lose your friends. Or to sit down and, and to talk to young men about like, I’m having problems with my wife. Well, after six years of marriage, here’s what I’ve learned, right? Instead, they’re all trying to be one of the guys. So we have old people. There’s plenty of old people, but we have very few elders. I’m very blessed that I have two men in my life that I count as my elders. And so you know, I have access to them and I can talk to them and I’ve learned and grown through them. But I just think that elderhood is something huge.

[00:42:28] And I think on the female side, we’re missing the same thing. The coven of aunts and,andhers and grandmothers who are there to help a woman bring children in the world and negotiate her first relationships with men. I remember my mother talking about how my family is very matriarchal and how my great aunt sat her down on her wedding night and explained to her how to deal with the Bain men and like, here are the tips and tricks that work and throughout her whole marriage in the first 15 years, you know? She would call them and be like, I don’t know what I’m doing. And they’d be like all right, well, come on over, honey. And she’d show up and they’d be like — they’d have iced tea in the backyard and like, teacher! But I don’t have that, and I don’t have that because I — because I don’t think it even exists, even if I was in Southeastern Wisconsin still.

[00:43:14] Demetra Gray: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s rare. It’s sad that we don’t have it. I’ve never heard anyone say that, It makes so much sense that like, people came over to America and like, left, the elders were left behind.

[00:43:27] Dylan Bain: Yeah.

[00:43:28] Demetra Gray: Sad.

[00:43:29] Dylan Bain: A lot of my work is focused on, you know, helping people get their finances right ’cause I think that I think it’s foundational, but I also view our society as intensely anti human. And so conversations like this, I feel so soulful about it with your experiences and your lessons.

[00:43:44] Coming up on time. I always ask people, where can people find more Demetra in their life? Because I think your message and your writings have been so influential and so nourishing for both me and my spouse that I’d love more people to find you.

[00:44:00] Demetra Gray: Yeah, I think the best place to always go is my website, which is just DemetraGray.com. The best place to hear from me is my email list because that’s kind of, you know, everything has shifted so much. My business has changed so much, and my husband and I are doing a lot of stuff together currently, like offering things together, but my email list is the best place to hear all of the things in one place. I am a bit back on Instagram now too, but I’ve mostly just been writing about cults on Instagram. But my Instagram is @DemetraGray__ and then two underscores at the end.

[00:44:33] Dylan Bain: So if we want cult content, Instagram.

[00:44:35] Demetra Gray: If you want cult content.

[00:44:36] Dylan Bain: Everything else, email list.

[00:44:39] Demetra Gray: No, well, my email list gets the cult content too. My email list is the best place to go because I just include everything I’m doing in that place.

[00:44:47] Dylan Bain: Amazing. Demetra, this has been an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:44:51] Demetra Gray: You’re so welcome. Thank you for having me.

[00:44:55] Dylan Bain: Thanks for listening. The conversation doesn’t end here. Please share the show with friends and make sure you keep up with all the latest updates on Instagram and threads at the Dylan Bain and dive deeper into the world of finance with me at DylanBain.com where you’ll find insights, resources, and strategies to reimagine your money story.