[00:00:00] Dylan Bain: We’re saying goodbye to the rigid numbers and strict budgets and putting relationships back at the heart of personal finance. This is more than a podcast. It’s an invitation to reimagine your money story and journey with us through a landscape of intuitive strategies and abundance. Join a community that nurtures transformative financial mindsets.

[00:00:25] Welcome to intuitive finance. I’m your host, Dylan Bain.

[00:00:36] Welcome to intuitive finance. We’re joined today by Amy McAllister. Amy McAllister is a seasoned counselor and psychotherapist with a passion for uncovering the unique essence in each individual. Amy’s curiosity about the human condition and the knack for connecting life’s dots has propelled her towards a distinguished education in psychology and counseling, culminating in a bachelor’s degree in psychology and sociology, alongside two master’s degrees, including one in marriage and family therapy.

[00:01:02] Amy’s professional journey in counseling began in 2001, initially providing support at a crisis center in Dallas, Texas, and helping young adults face their challenging times. She later honed her expertise with children and adolescents in a private practice, and a focus she maintained for five years before broadening her scope to assist adults, couples, and families navigate the complexities of their lives.

[00:01:24] Embracing a lifelong dream, Amy located here to Colorado, where she eagerly established her private practice. And this move also coincided with her start of her own family journey, enriching her personal and professional life in Viber, Colorado community. Join us as Amy shares her insights from her extensive experience and deep commitment to helping others find harmony and understanding in their lives.

[00:01:47] Amy McAllister, welcome to the show.

[00:01:50] Amy McAllaster: Dylan Bain, thank you for having me. I’m so excited. So excited. And I, I want to, um, First, like send so many kudos and give you so much credit for all that you do. And for your listeners who don’t know how amazing you are, I just give you so much credit.

[00:02:09] Dylan Bain: Thank you so much for that.

[00:02:10] I’m a big believer that everything’s a journey and it’s always just innovative process. We’ve talked a lot on the podcast about the idea of a finite game versus an infinite game. And the power of changing your mindset into the infinite game. I’m really excited to have you on the, on the show, because we talk a lot about, you know, in the financial world with couples and a lot of my coaching practice on the financial side is with couples.

[00:02:33] And you have this concept of the conscious relationship. And I want to start there because I think that’s just dynamite. And I want to start drilling on that. So could you just tell us what is conscious relationship?

[00:02:45] Amy McAllaster: Okay, well, I’m going to first shoot it back to you and ask you what you think it is. I want to start there like for the average non therapist, you know, because I’m therapist 23 years.

[00:02:56] Um, so to me, this is so obvious, but to most people, it’s not. So I want to see. What you think it is and then go from there.

[00:03:04] Dylan Bain: I’m not the typical person off the street, but I’ll give it a shot So when I hear conscious relationship, i’m hearing a relationship that is intentional That is grounded and that you’re actually aware of your internal states and your partner’s internal states.

[00:03:17] Amy McAllaster: Okay, perfect so the way that I sort of conceptualize or educate people or try to work with people around conscious relationship is a relationship in which it is kind of dynamic and and Where you’re acutely aware of what’s going on with yourself, and you are regularly, consistently, frequently sharing what is going on with yourself.

[00:03:41] So, that’s not like a super clear definition, but that’s what it is. It’s just an engaged, dynamic relationship where you are totally authentic and constantly sharing and, well, not constantly, but frequently sharing. Here’s where I am in this moment. Here’s what’s going on for me. You know, you’re Conscious, I think is a perfect, is a perfect word for it because it requires the self awareness and the ability to share what is going on inside of you at any given moment.

[00:04:13] So that’s how I conceptualize

[00:04:14] Dylan Bain: it. That’s amazing. And I think that’s such a good message for men specifically to hear, you know, so many of us are raised to be stoic, get stuff done, be able to be focused. And I know for myself, one of the practices that I’ve had to bring into my own marriage Is telling my wife, I’m feeling X, Y, Z, because I don’t show it at all.

[00:04:35] So I can be upset. I could be sad and she’s picking up that energetically, right? How does being more conscious in that relationship bring in this safety elements into relationships? That’s so important.

[00:04:48] Amy McAllaster: Yeah, that’s a good question, but I want to quickly address something you just said you would be.

[00:04:53] Amazed at like, when I have couples in my office and I work with, I work with individual men and I work with individual women and I do couples work and I’ll do sometimes tandem work, right? Like, I’ll see the couple and then I’ll pull the man out or I pull the female out or whichever partner, but you would be amazed at the facial expressions I get from people when I say Okay, I want you to share what you’re feeling right now in this moment, and then I want you to go home and do the exact same thing.

[00:05:23] I mean, it’s like befuddled. They’re like, what? I mean, it’s such a foreign concept, especially to the men. And so that would be something that I would find interesting to chat with you about. Like, why? Why is that so fascinating, surprising, hard, et cetera. But your question, tell me what your question was. Oh,

[00:05:44] Dylan Bain: I’m more now fascinated and continuing this line of reasoning because the answer to your question just comes out, at least for me, is no one cares what a guy thinks, like in school, I would tell teachers like, oh, I’m upset.

[00:05:58] And they’d be like, well, you have to get over that. And it was very much of the like. Women have problems. Men are problems. So like, if I was upset, you know, particularly when I was a teenager, because I’m, I’m a bigger guy because I’m very strong, it would be like, well, if he’s upset, we have to stop that immediately.

[00:06:14] We have to teach him anger management, which was really just being taught to shove that down and that. Yeah. And that, that my emotions were both dangerous and they didn’t want to see them. When you tell a guy like, Oh no, I actually want to see this. Yes. Particularly when I’m working with men, I’ve heard a lot.

[00:06:30] No, you don’t. You don’t know what’s there. Yeah. They’re already thinking that their internal processes will be scary.

[00:06:37] Amy McAllaster: Do you think that men also are intimidated by their own emotions? Like, not only do they think that people won’t find them interesting or valuable or important, but don’t you think they’re threatened on some level or scared of their own feelings?

[00:06:51] Like, oh my god, because they’re not conditioned and trained and nurtured in them when they’re growing up? Let’s just

[00:06:58] Dylan Bain: kind of use a little allegory there. If you had been trained that the ocean was a dangerous thing that should be avoided at all costs. And then somebody tells you that the secret to success is scuba diving.

[00:07:07] That’s going to look intimidating to this person. And, you know, for myself, for the self and a lot of the men that I work with, it’s not that they’re intimidated by their emotions. It’s that they don’t have any, any grounding or framework to even understand what they’re

[00:07:22] Amy McAllaster: talking about. And they don’t have experience.

[00:07:24] They don’t have it. Identifying I just had a client in here today and it was a couple. They’ve been married maybe 5 years and husband is sort of kind of like flirting with this like emotional affair over here and you know, we were processing all this, but we came out of it was he has. Zero awareness of his own emotions and or how to express them, how to identify them, what words to use around them.

[00:07:53] And so it’s a super important skill for conscious relationships to be able to number one, know yourself, be able to express yourself, be able to identify what’s going on inside of yourself. I mean, it’s super important and fascinating for me to do this work with men around. Like, where, where’s this coming from?

[00:08:11] And like you said, like, if the ocean, if you’ve been taught that the ocean is scary, and then you’re told scuba diving, oh, this is going to be the secret to your success in this particular area of your life, yeah, there’s a lot of work to do there around resistance, around resistance. All kinds of things.

[00:08:27] So fascinating. But I mean, I still maintain that men maybe aren’t threatened by their emotions, but just don’t have the experience. And so it becomes very anxiety producing to like, to do the work that I was talking about to say, Oh, I. I’m feeling threatened by that relationship you have with your male coworker, or I’m feeling lonely or I’m feeling disconnected or I’m feeling neglected or whatever it is.

[00:08:53] It’s really hard work in the beginning, but then it becomes so automatic for people and for couples that then it’s like second nature after, you know, it’s like anything else else you’re working on. A hundred

[00:09:06] Dylan Bain: percent. If you want to scuba dive, you first have to dip your toe in the ocean. You touched on something I hear a lot.

[00:09:11] What would you say to a guy when you say like, well, you should express that you’re feeling threatened by this woman’s relationship with her coworker. And he says, the fuck I am like, I’m not bringing that up because it’s never going to end well for me. And when you dig on that, they might say something like, well, she always tells me she wants me to be open and vulnerable, but then she gets mad at what I say.

[00:09:33] What would you say to the guy in that situation?

[00:09:36] Amy McAllaster: Okay. Very good question. My immediate response is let her. Get mad. Let her. That’s part of the emotional work, Dylan. It’s, hey, you have to be able to hold space for her emotions just like Or her reactions, just like you’re doing your own emotional work. Let her get mad.

[00:09:56] Sit with it. Give her space for that. Don’t let that be the reason that you don’t then show up authentically. There’s part of me too, and this is the less nurturing, less sort of, I guess I would call it feminine side of me, that’s like, Man up and deal with her anger. Hold space for that. It’s okay. It’s okay.

[00:10:14] Let her get mad and work through

[00:10:16] Dylan Bain: it. That’s an interesting standpoint. My pushback on that would be, there’s a common trope to say that women are sex objects, men are success objects. And part of our success is always being able to deal with the things around us. So when she gets upset, and she’s come to understand or expect that, oh, I’m just going to make it okay.

[00:10:35] Which a lot of guys do unconsciously. Now if I’m gonna see you just come in and say, Hey, you should just let her be upset. How is that not just regulating for both sides of that transaction to suddenly change the game where you’re telling him, Hey, you just got to cook in this uncomfortableness, but not for her.

[00:10:50] Oh, and he’s not coming to rescue. You have to rescue yourself.

[00:10:52] Amy McAllaster: It doesn’t mean that she’s justified or that she. It doesn’t mean you just sit there and take it, and maybe you can elaborate a little bit more on your question, but I think that in any conscious relationship, we have to be grounded enough, and there’s some, not inconsistencies, but we, we would have to talk more about this piece, but we have to be grounded enough if we’re going to show up authentically to allow them to, that’s part of the emotional work, it’s like, let her get angry, fold space for it, it doesn’t mean that anything she does is okay, or how she articulates it is okay, and it doesn’t mean, It doesn’t mean a lot of things, but to me, it’s part of the work.

[00:11:30] It’s like, let her get angry, hold space for it, and work through it. The next step would be work through it. You know, don’t back off, don’t get more aggressive. Am I hearing your question clearly, or?

[00:11:44] Dylan Bain: I’m trying to give voice to what a lot of men have expressed in men’s only spaces of, you know, I want to be that.

[00:11:50] I want to be able to be open. I want to be able to be honest. I feel like I’m out of integrity by hiding my emotions all the time and it never goes well for me. And I, I’ve had that in my own experience, you know, my wife and I have gone through a lot and I’ve been very open about that on the podcast and coming to the realization of like, Oh, I don’t bring up negative emotions because there’s no space in that.

[00:12:11] And that I can get to a point where I’m solid enough that, like, it doesn’t matter and I can hold it, but that also doesn’t mean that I’m being seen just because I’m holding their, their space doesn’t mean that I’ve suddenly been seen in this relationship.

[00:12:24] Amy McAllaster: Thank you for saying it that way, because that clarifies for me what you’re talking about here.

[00:12:28] I think as therapist, my next step would be, what does that bring up for you? When she’s angry, yeah, it doesn’t mean that, just what does that, what additionally does that bring up for you? And that’s a deeper layer of work for that person then to do. It’s like, okay, when she’s angry, yeah, you didn’t get the outcome you wanted and it doesn’t feel good that you were vulnerable and you got that in response.

[00:12:53] So what does that bring up for you? What does that mean about you as a person? What deeper work do you need to do? And then number two, what work does that require then in the relationship in order for you to me, the next step for you as man would be. Hey, when I’m vulnerable, which is something you’ve asked for, and then you get angry, or the outcome is not safe or comfortable for me, it makes me want to go back into my snail shell again.

[00:13:22] It’s that conscious continued communication about it that I think would then ultimately give the man maybe a different outcome, one that he’s looking for, but it’s not like you can just say, Okay, I’m feeling lonely and she’s going to be like, Oh my God, I’m so sorry. And what can I do to address your needs?

[00:13:40] It’s work on both sides, right? She’s going to have to learn to show up authentically. But step one is you showing up authentically.

[00:13:49] Dylan Bain: What would you say to the guy who says, you know, I work really hard at that. And I feel like she’s just not putting me in the effort on her side to be in this with me.

[00:13:57] Amy McAllaster: I have multiple responses to that.

[00:13:59] I’m like, let’s do it. Okay. So do you want to take a look at your partner? I mean, are you married? Are you single? Those are my questions. Like I need so much more context. Right. But like for a married person, I would say, okay, there’s a lot then then we got to work. We got to dig. We got to get her in here.

[00:14:15] Or you’ve got to have these conversations on a more serious level or a more assertive level or something. But the other piece is, if you’re single and you’re just dating someone, you want to take a look at that. Is this someone that I can really partner with and who’s really willing to grow with me?

[00:14:31] Because, you know, there’s so much marital research and science around Okay, and there’s like this age old question of what really makes a relationship work and how can I make this successful and two key pieces that I’ve always held on to. It’s do you have a partner who’s willing to grow and do the work?

[00:14:50] And if you do. Really, there’s no limit to, well, I mean, that’s one key piece to success is, is my partner willing to, you know, roll their sleeves up, put the boots on and get to work here. The second piece is, it’s how you, and you’ve probably heard this, Dylan, you’re very well. Read educated, but the repair process, it’s how you work through the conflict and how you show up in conflict that really is telling for success in relationships.

[00:15:19] So, I think I would say to that person, like, okay, we got some work to do, like. If they’re not willing to do the work, you can only get a certain level of satisfaction out of this relationship and you have to, you have to come to terms with that or you get them in and you start setting some boundaries.

[00:15:36] Like, I’m not willing to operate this way anymore in this relationship and you kind of make it a little uncomfortable for them. So that there is more pain, their pain point is higher to create some

[00:15:48] Dylan Bain: change. I love that when saying that you have to establish boundaries if I’m not willing to operate this way.

[00:15:53] I think for a lot of men, they’re afraid the relationship will die if they do that. And sometimes that’s actually what happens. Um, that I’ve, I’ve sat with men picking up the pieces from that. And one of the things I’ve always told them is like, you didn’t fail, you actually succeeded. Yes. You, you succeeded in standing up for yourself and becoming a defined human being and differentiating from that.

[00:16:14] That’s a success piece. Now, the fact that she, she wasn’t going to stay with you in that means that she didn’t see you as human. Anyway, you were objectified in the whole relationship. Totally. And I, I feel like men are so used to being objectified. We’re objectified more or less from birth and it becomes the water we swim in.

[00:16:31] It’s really hard for a man to not see themselves as an object or not see themselves as disposable. What

[00:16:38] Amy McAllaster: do you think? And this is me now interviewing you, but I’m here for it. I’m curious what most men feel objectified about.

[00:16:48] Dylan Bain: It’s always hard for me to speak for most men, but I can tell you what I see and what I see is.

[00:16:54] For example, you look at children when they’re born and a lot of guys will say, I don’t, I don’t have the words for this. To me, that always speaks to attachment wound is not, is too early for words, meaning that it’s very early in life. And I’ve seen this happen with couples. I’ve seen this with parents.

[00:17:10] I’ve seen this in part with my own girls. How people react to the babies when they’re crying. You know, with my daughters, I was told and counseled like, Oh, she really needs love. She needs nurturing. And, and I would hold her chest to chest and all this other stuff. But then when my friend had his son, those same people were telling him, well, you just got to put him in a room and lock the door until he’s ready to be civilized.

[00:17:31] And so, so what you have then is that these boys from birth are being told that once they self abandoned their needs, then the parents will be there for them. And that starts really early. Now, now you move forward, right? Boys, I mean, how many boys are, you know, suspended or put in detention or put in solitary confinement in various juvenile detention facilities, which the rate of boys who are like nine years old being tried as adults were viewed on a society level as predatory.

[00:18:01] And hyper responsible for all of our actions. And then on top of it, when we turn 18, what does every boy in the United States have to do when they turn 18? We sign a draft card to blank check, to be signed up for the military and sent out to the front lines at any given time we’re viewed as disposable.

[00:18:17] And the flip side of that is, well, eventually we’ll build a statue to you and Warren Farrell talks about this a lot of the myth of male masculinity, male superiority, where we promise that there’s going to be the statue and that if you just sacrifice enough, then you’ll get the thing that’s objectification, we are turned into success objects.

[00:18:35] And a lot of men feel that. So then they’re told, Hey, we really want to see this emotional side. Well, when you’ve lived your whole life, yeah. Being your production. This is not a language. You understand. In fact, it’s a language that you were told from birth that if you understood and that you, you asserted yourself, you would be abandoned.

[00:18:55] And I’ve seen this with so many young boys, you know, that are where I’m, I’m coaching their father or I’m coaching the couple. And I see this, you know, and having to say, no, they need nurturing too. And it’s like me telling them, like, by the way, dragons are real, but it just doesn’t compute to them. Then on the, on the adult side, I’m telling these adult male, Hey, you have emotions, you have needs.

[00:19:18] They need to be expressed. And I, same thing. I’m telling them that dragons exist. They don’t believe it. It’s a great story, but it doesn’t, it’s

[00:19:24] Amy McAllaster: not real. Yeah, it’s a nice postcard, right? But I always tell people that it’s like speaking Japanese to someone who speaks French. It doesn’t even register. And so, you know, again, even more important that this starts young because, and I don’t know if you’re familiar with the book, How We Love, Or the book attached, I’m sure you are, but they talk so heavily about this and the importance of this starting young because I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to learn a new language as an adult, but it’s brutal, but you take a child, try to teach them a new language.

[00:20:00] Super, super fast. And then they have it for life, you know, so, um, but here is how men feel objectified because I just haven’t heard a lot of men use that term in particular. But yeah, it’s a really, to me, this is really, really, really, really important in terms of, um, whole person development, you know, and like.

[00:20:24] Action like if you look at personal happiness and the research on personal happiness, a strong connected relationships is part of the equation for true fulfillment and like, and I don’t like the word happy, but fulfillment contentment in life and being able to have a conscious relationship to me is one of those ingredients.

[00:20:43] And so, you know, when I think about all my clients over the years, all the affairs and all the trauma in relationships and everything that couples go through and, you know, men and women separately, but also together being able to really feel connected to another human being is. Huge in terms of life’s action and contentment and success.

[00:21:06] And this is one of the barriers men not being taught how to connect, how to share themselves with another person, how to reveal what’s going on. And to second, what you’re saying, knowing how to sit with themselves in that and to speak that language and to hear that language back is one of the barriers.

[00:21:26] So I just think it’s so, so it’s like a passion of mine, like teaching people how to do this because it’s so foundational to overall life, happiness and success.

[00:21:42] Dylan Bain: Ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to take a real brief pause in the interview and I’m going to make a request. Please leave me a five star rating review wherever you’re getting your podcasts. This year is going to be huge for us and I would really like to grow the followings and I’m asking your help to do it.

[00:21:56] If anything I’ve put. But out on Facebook, on Instagram, and especially on this podcast has touched you, moved you, or helped you advance your life in any way, shape, or form. Please do me this one simple favor. Stop what you’re doing. Leave me a rating review wherever you’re getting podcasts. Without further ado, let’s get back to the interview.

[00:22:18] I would agree a hundred percent. And it’s hard because there’s, when somebody is erased, it’s hard to see them. And I’ll give you an example where men get erased. And this is part of the background noise that just we live in. You get a newspaper article here in Denver where they’re talking about how one in four homeless people is women and how that’s a tragedy.

[00:22:37] And everybody will look at that and go, wow, one in four homeless people is a woman. That’s horrible. What about the other 75%? What are they? Yeah. They’re men. So when you look at it and say the homeless problem, you know, we have female shelters. Do men have shelters? No, we don’t. Do men have domestic violence shelters?

[00:22:55] Even though we experience domestic violence at the same rate as women do. That’s fast. Do we have any shelters to go to? No. There’s one in the entire United States. Is there an office of men’s health? No, but there’s no office of woman’s health. So you can see where we started to build in systemic things in which men get erased.

[00:23:11] So now with that as the backdrop of our entire lives, where we’re problems in school, we’re success objects, we’re written out, like for example, woman saves child who’s drowning. Right. Yeah, that’s a headline. But if it’s a man who’s doing it, the man isn’t, you know, the fact that he’s a man isn’t put in the headline child from drowning is the headline.

[00:23:31] So now you take that and you put them into this relationship space and say a moat. You’re like, you’re snapping your fingers to be like, do the trick to get the cookie a moat. Why would they know this? We didn’t set up anything anywhere in which yeah. Boys were going to be seeing this, but when they can’t do it, well, who do we blame the men?

[00:23:50] Yeah, it’s your problem. You’re broken. You’re insufficient, which is why men get missed in therapy. So when I have people come into my practice, I go nine, nine times out of 10. When I asked a couple, why did you come to me for financial coaching? The woman says, well, because I like your message. And the man says, because you’re a dude.

[00:24:08] Amy McAllaster: Yeah. One of the things that you said you wanted to talk to me about were obstacles that couples are facing. And I think. One of them is the majority of my practice is women, and I, there are men who are. Who willingly come, who seek me out on their own. You know what I mean? But it is definitely the minority.

[00:24:28] And so yeah, it’s like, here’s this problem that men aren’t taught, aren’t seen as whole persons, you know, with emotions. They’re not taught how to speak that language, and then you’re asking them to go into a space on their own. It seems kind of unfair, but I was gonna add something to what you were just saying about.

[00:24:46] You know, men, they’re not conditioned. They’re not trained. And then women are asking them or people or whomever is asking them to show up in this space. And I actually am going to advocate for men a little bit. I don’t think women know how to allow a man to be in this space. Like, that is also something that I work with people on.

[00:25:07] It’s like, Because men have always been objects, have always been success objects, to use your words, they’ve been taught to be this masculine, and I’m using air quotes here, to be this masculine form, but then women want something else, they say they want something else, but then when the man shows up that way, They don’t like it, or they don’t know how to respond to it, and it’s a little bit unfair.

[00:25:30] It’s like, hey, if we say we want that, and if we’re asking for men to be more emotional, I don’t like that word, men to be more vulnerable, men to be more self aware, and to be more assertive with that, we then need to rewire ourselves. To allow for that, because for a long time you’re right, like women, we want that man who’s like, you know, doesn’t show emotion who’s like this strong tower and where it’s not equal or reciprocal in terms of vulnerability.

[00:26:01] I think that’s how we’ve been conditioned as women. And so I have to learn how to allow for that and make it safer for you guys.

[00:26:09] Dylan Bain: I actually like historically, I think that that’s just a result of 50 years of basically being under warfare conditions here in the United States starting in 1914 and moving forward.

[00:26:19] But I would like to ask you, do you see that showing up in your practice where you have men who come in and they’re just lonely? They have no other men spaces in which to even practice emotion. Absolutely. Would you say more about that?

[00:26:33] Amy McAllaster: All the time. I see men doing this, but I don’t think I don’t think that they recognize it as loneliness.

[00:26:39] A lot of times it manifests maybe as just melancholy, depression, whatever. And we don’t recognize it as loneliness. So it’s a difficult thing because they come in and whether they come in as a couple or individually, I think it’s super common. And, you know, it was mother Teresa who said that loneliness is the American epidemic.

[00:27:00] All right. She goes on to elaborate about how it’s not loneliness from other human beings, it’s loneliness from themselves. They’re not themselves. And I always tell people, you can’t be connected to another person without first being connected to yourself. And so, yes, I see this all the time with men, but again, I have to recognize it for them.

[00:27:20] And then they’re like, aha, it’s like the light bulb. It’s like, yes, I’m so lonely. And then step one is let me get you connected to yourself. Like, let’s look at your past. Let’s let you know some of that deeper therapist work. And then Let’s teach you how to show up as that person in a relationship and with your needs.

[00:27:40] So yeah, and I wouldn’t even say it’s just men. I think it’s women too, but women are naturally more relational. So I think, you know, we naturally reach out more for connection with other women. And so.

[00:27:52] Dylan Bain: I do this female only group still there are still female open groups like professionally. There’s the woman’s society and there’s the chamber of commerce and all this other stuff.

[00:28:03] So there isn’t the equivalent for men.

[00:28:07] Amy McAllaster: Now, if you add in like the racial, I mean, there’s so much language right now about it. Like, anyway, I think you’re right there. It isn’t there. You could never say we have this. Well, you, you could, but you know, there’s no men’s group for her. Whatever, fill in the blank.

[00:28:24] Yeah. We’re

[00:28:24] having

[00:28:24] Dylan Bain: to create our own, which this year I’ve already, you know, by the time that this podcast would come out, I’ve already launched my own, my own men’s group, the Ascendant Legion. You know, we’ve got guys in there that are working on this exact thing, uh, in a group of men, where it’s a safe environment.

[00:28:40] That we can make mistakes and they are going to be welcomed and the men that are in there are actually practiced at receiving someone’s emotions. But I do want to kind of go back to what you were talking about a little bit because are you familiar with the, and I cannot remember the, the author’s name, but it was the problem with no name.

[00:28:56] It was written in the 1950s. Now it’s like a foundational, uh, second wave feminist text where they talk about, you know, all these suburban housewives who are going insane and it’s the problem with no name. And When you’re kind of looking at it, I kind of feel like that was the harbinger of what we’ve created as an anti human society that we live in now, where you had taken women away from their, their female groups, which is their aunts and their mothers and their daughters and their, and we, we moved them to the suburbs in a little box and we created machines that would do a lot of their work for them, but now they’re doing it by themselves and they’re looking at their husbands going, well, he still has a community because it was the factory.

[00:29:34] Right. It was the men’s hall. It was the Oaks Club. It was whatever. And so she wrote this article called the problem with no name. And she, she basically is, it’s like a canary in the coal mine, but her prescription was, we need to take over men’s spaces. Because that’s where the social activity is. That’s what the economic power is.

[00:29:52] That’s what we have to do. And now I look at it and I’m like, no, the prescription was more community. Are you seeing strong communities, or do you feel like a lot of what you’re seeing in your practice is the result of a sick community? Ooh, both.

[00:30:05] Amy McAllaster: Both. I feel like So much of what I see in my office is decades and decades and decades in the making, right?

[00:30:14] Like the results of no community, the results of being disconnected from our families, the results of all of those things for years and years and years and years and years and years. And I’m seeing people create community because I think, and I don’t, I don’t have a number on it, Dylan, but I feel like We have gotten more emotionally intelligent as a society, and so we’re recognizing this more and more, and either organically, intrinsically, or intentionally, people are finding community.

[00:30:45] It’s not family necessarily, but they’re finding community, and so I do think we need to continue to work on it. And consciously do this type of thing and have the skills to have healthy community because, you know, healthy community to me is key. The ability to work through conflict, the, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:31:04] But I think I see both to answer your question and I’m encouraged sometimes to see people intentionally creating community, but I’m going to elaborate a little bit. You can’t have community unless you can show up authentically. People always want to be seen and known, but then we don’t know how to really show up.

[00:31:23] To truly feel seen and truly known and so, you know, we need to continue to work on that where we can be 100 percent authentic. And my last little my brain’s all over, but I would say that I see people find community in spaces that you necessarily wouldn’t expect it like a. So much community there. Any of the N.

[00:31:46] A. The A. A. Like, you know, sadly, that’s where I people I see people find the most connectedness because again, they’re showing up super authentic. You can’t pretend there you can, but you’re not going to benefit. But yeah, that’s where I see people find it. The most is in these kind of recovery communities, conscious living communities, um, et cetera.

[00:32:09] So it needs to be more commonplace in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:32:16] Dylan Bain: absolutely. I, I was listening to a podcast, uh, that had Adam Lane Smith on it. Who’s an attachment expert. And he was talking about how, you know, when children are developing, when they, when they’re developing communities, even if their parents aren’t emotionally available or their parents are substandard, there’s the auntie, there’s the uncle, there’s the guy down the street and they had, they can attach to that and attach to the community.

[00:32:40] But as we’ve built out more and more suburbs and become more and more car dependent, we’ve lost all that. You don’t have the neighborhood group of boys running around anymore, right? Anyway, we’re all expected to be locked in our backyards. So it’s interesting that you’re seeing that in your practice, both, you know, these new emergent communities, but also the lack of the frontline communities that we used to have.

[00:33:02] Amy McAllaster: Yeah, like automatic. I call them automatic communities, right? Like, there’s still probably cultures where, yeah, like extended family living with nuclear family, you know, and that’s, I call that automatic community. Whether it’s healthy or not is a whole other question, but, you know, these inorganic or intentional communities, yes, we need more of.

[00:33:25] For sure, and I think it has to be intentional because you’re, you’re, you’re right. Our society doesn’t support it. You know, we drive everywhere we can go to any school now that we want to. So you’re not hanging out with your buddies that you see at school. You’re not that natural community. It’s just harder to find.

[00:33:45] But I do think we’re getting smarter about it. I really do or at least I see it and maybe you know My sample of population is different than than what you see, but I do I do see people trying Trying yeah, and again, I want to make sure that I differentiate healthy community versus unhealthy But there are places that you can get this And it really supports that overall mental health, emotional health, etc.

[00:34:13] Dylan Bain: Amazing. It’s interesting when you say like, you think we’re getting better. Um, you know, at the risk of going down a municipal finance rabbit hole, which is a big passion of mine. You know, I’m looking at and saying until we have walkable communities until we’re really willing to give up the car. You know, and be able to have an authentic third place that we don’t have to necessarily pay for.

[00:34:35] I don’t think that we’re going to make as much progress as we need to. Do you

[00:34:39] Amy McAllaster: not see that happening, by the way? What’s your

[00:34:41] Dylan Bain: experience? I don’t. I don’t. At least in the United States and Canada, I have an allergic reaction to density. And in order to have a walkable community, you inherently are dense.

[00:34:51] And we, like my zoning laws, are a great example of that, where, you know, I got a quarter acre lot here in, you know, north of Denver. I’d love to scrape and replace and put four units on this property, but I can’t because of zoning laws. You know, the anti density, they’re, they’re stopping that. But if we had more people in a walkable environment, then pretty soon you have a cafe and then pretty soon you have a bakery and then pretty soon you have a patio.

[00:35:11] And then pretty soon, you know, do you have a third place where you’re seeing people As humans in a real context, but we’re here in, in the town that I live here in Colorado. We just elected a board where they ran on an anti density platform. Yeah. You know, anti sidewalks, anti density, anti walkable anything.

[00:35:31] And so we’re taking a massive step back and the progress we’ve made over the last

[00:35:36] Amy McAllaster: few years. Yeah. That’s so interesting. I think for me, I live in a community, I live in a cul de sac, right? So I feel like our little community. Or our little cul de sac is kind of a community. We have our own little culture, rules and things that we do and don’t do.

[00:35:52] And we’ve developed that over a period of probably, I don’t know, three to five years. You know, and I think about like the little ski mountain where we ski and how we go there every year, we go every weekend, every year. And so we know people and there’s a little community there. And so when I say, I do see some of this happening, I see it in my life.

[00:36:11] I see other people doing that too, but I can see where you’re coming from. If you live in a spa Yeah, you’re not seeing your neighbor every day and you’re not having neighborhood parties and you’re not, yeah, pretty isolated and pretty hard to find community. You know, because I think in the absence of these extended families being more connected, um, this is how we’re finding it at the ski hill, at the church, in the neighborhood, at the school events, and et cetera.

[00:36:39] That’s that’s where I see community happening, but it still has to be partly intentional. It’s not all automatic. You know, we have to really consciously. Go after groups of people that we want to have community with.

[00:36:54] Dylan Bain: Yeah, I mean, I too live in a cul de sac and I’ve, I’ve tried to host a cul de sac party.

[00:36:59] Uh, no one showed up, you know, and, and I, no, I’m not. And I’m also the youngest person in my forties who lives on this cul de sac. You know, so you, and all that stuff that you’re talking about, like that’s really unusual and very community based for the United States when I lived overseas in Taiwan. It’s a whole different ballgame when you walk down a back alley and it’s just teeming with people.

[00:37:21] There are people all over the place. There are, you know, old ladies who are exercising in the courtyard and there’s a herd of children running around and everyone’s watching the kids, right? Like in the United States, we expect the kids to be seen and not heard and sit down and stuff like that. But in Taiwan, if you were at a restaurant, non zero chance, they’re going to come up and want to pet the white guy’s beard, which was me, right?

[00:37:41] Amy McAllaster: And I wonder, this is me being an analyst here, but I wonder if you surveyed all those people, if they feel like they have community.

[00:37:49] Dylan Bain: Most of the ones I talked to have said that. And in fact, most of my former students who came here to the United States moved back for that community.

[00:37:57] Amy McAllaster: Yeah, because, so they’ll, all of those people running around in the courtyard and because they feel connected to other people.

[00:38:05] So you see it largely as an American problem. Not.

[00:38:09] Dylan Bain: Interesting. I see. I see it as a byproduct of an, of a system. It’s a bi Yeah. It’s the end. Like success leaves clues. Dysfunction does too. So, you know, when we look at it, what’s the difference in how we built things and how we, because we ripped down our, our walkable communities in the 1950s.

[00:38:25] Yeah. That’s when the problem with no names started. Yeah. You know? And what was that? Because we put people out in a car dependent supper.

[00:38:31] Amy McAllaster: Yeah, and you don’t see it as a result of family breakdown, like nuclear family, extended family. You see it more as a societal, like, this is the reason is because we don’t have walkable communities.

[00:38:44] It’s not you don’t see it as, oh, we’re disconnected from our families of origin. And that’s part of the

[00:38:50] Dylan Bain: problem. I see it as we’re disconnected from our family of origin because we don’t have those things. Yeah. Got it. You know, like for example, I live here in Colorado. I have exactly zero family here. You know, even, even if I lived back in Wisconsin where I was, where I was raised, the expectation would be at 18.

[00:39:06] And this is actually what happened to me. I graduated high school and two days later, I moved out. And I, I haven’t lived with my parents since, you know, and where did I have to move to? I moved to a city 60 miles north. So then I only saw my parents on the weekend. And then, you know, then I’m, I’m in college and I’m working a job and all this other stuff.

[00:39:23] And I even ended up in Taiwan because there wasn’t the economic opportunities there. So even if I lived back in Wisconsin where my family’s from, I would only see them every once in a great while. And then I’d have to make an intentional effort. Versus in many other places in the world, I walk out and my parents are down the street and I probably will see them at the grocery

[00:39:42] Amy McAllaster: store.

[00:39:42] Yeah, yeah, that’s so interesting and I see it as both. Yeah, I see it as both. Like, we have to have healthier family systems. And healthier communities and more closely connected, whether that be like geographically, logistically, but also I see it as like an emotional, like we don’t know how to have closer relationships with our family.

[00:40:08] We don’t know how to fix the problems or not fix, but exist within the problems in our families. And so a lot of it too, is people want to get away from their families. And so I totally can see where you’re coming from. And I think it’s more detailed in terms of When I think of from a clinical lens, we have to figure some of the details out also so that the anti

[00:40:32] Dylan Bain: human society created a manufacturing center for attachment wounds.

[00:40:36] Amy McAllaster: Yes, 100%.

[00:40:38] Dylan Bain: And I see that with my parents to like, there’s tons of conversations that I, that we, we really should be having, um, so that we can be a bonded family group and the response is, why would you want to talk about that? Or. That’s not what happened. It’s a perception thing. You’re wrong. And so now as a result, we don’t talk about it.

[00:40:56] But as you’re, as you’re pointing out, we’re not taught that we’re not shown that. And, you know, I, I believe that our society is set up to produce that result, not intentionally, but it is what happened. And

[00:41:07] Amy McAllaster: I don’t disagree with that. I don’t disagree with that at all. And it’s like, you know, I think we, it’s bottom up, right?

[00:41:13] We can’t go top down. We have to go bottom up here. So we have to, as people, as parents, as a couple, whatever, we have to create this in our little sphere of influence. And it breeds itself, right? Like if we are raising kids this way, it will create more people that operate this way. And I don’t know, are you familiar at all with free range parenting?

[00:41:36] Dylan Bain: Oh, yeah. Before I knew what free range parenting was, we used to joke that that’s how the Taiwanese raised their children. Yes, they were free range children. But

[00:41:44] Amy McAllaster: you know what? Community, it creates community. Like, we become more dependent on one another. So, yeah. Anyway, I just wondered if, if you, I feel like that ties into it so much because I’m, I’m sort of that type of parent, like not intentionally.

[00:41:58] I didn’t like intentionally free range parent my kids, but I’m like, go run, get to know the neighbors, like, call the other parent when you have an issue, like, let’s be connected to our community, and maybe my perspective is skewed because I have, have consciously created that for myself and my kids, you know, like, I work with Really hard on creating this for our family because I want my kids to trust other adults.

[00:42:24] I want my kids to feel comfortable reaching out to another adult. I want my kids to know the neighbors. I want them to know their grandparents. So it does take a shit ton of work, but it’s healthy and good and it works anyway.

[00:42:38] Dylan Bain: No, I think that’s great. I and I see that with my own kids to like you, we had to make a lot of conscious decisions.

[00:42:44] And one of them was for me, my Children’s expressions more important than the carpet. And so, you know, my, my girls are raised to be self starters and, and to, you know, express where they’re at. And we always make sure that we validate that is okay. And sometimes that means that they decide they want to reorganize their bedroom.

[00:43:01] And sometimes that means that they accidentally put the iron for the melty beads down on the carpet. Now I have a hole in the carpet, you know, and if I punish them for that, if I react to them, then I’m showing them that that risk that they took is

[00:43:12] Amy McAllaster: not okay. I know. I love that you’re doing this. And I find so much encouragement and hope for the future when I see parents parenting this way, because it’s going to create people who number one, are connected to themselves who are.

[00:43:25] comfortable being fully authentic. Number two, they’re going to then seek out people that are that way, and they’re going to create more children that are that way, you know. And so that’s where I see the hope is, okay, the more people we get this message, the more men that we may, I mean, let’s use the terms make comfortable or create comfortable spaces for them to learn this language.

[00:43:46] The more couples that we do work with around this, the better our, our Future looks and I, I feel like I have a micro, you’re much more educated, so maybe you have a macroscopic view of this. So you might disagree with me, but that’s where I find hope. Because otherwise, if you look at it, you’re like, we’re heading in the wrong direction.

[00:44:07] People were headed in the wrong direction. Unless you look at these little small communities that are Intentionally doing these things and look at the multiplication factor that we hope happens.

[00:44:20] Dylan Bain: Yeah, I always take a macro view of things, but that’s how I’m trained professionally is to look at total systems and details, take care of themselves or that someone else’s job.

[00:44:30] So it’s not not an education thing. It’s a training thing.

[00:44:34] Amy McAllaster: My training is like the details, right? Like taking the one unit you have and getting into the nitty gritty and those details. So it’s so interesting.

[00:44:44] Dylan Bain: Yeah. Well, this conversation has been amazing and far reaching and I’ve loved every single second of it.

[00:44:49] And I know the audience did too. Uh, before we wrap up here, I would just like to ask if people are looking for more Amy McAllister in their life, where can they find you, your work and everything that’s involved with what you’re doing?

[00:45:01] Amy McAllaster: Yes. So I am on Facebook, Amy McAllister coaching. I’m on Instagram, Amy McAllister, my website, amymcallister.

[00:45:11] com. My counseling practice is Amy McAllister coaching. So basically my name, you Google my name, you can find me somewhere. I’m in Littleton, seeing people in the office. I’m online. So pretty easy. If you just put my name in, you will find me.

[00:45:28] Dylan Bain: Amazing. Oh, we’ll get all that linked up in the show notes. Amy, thank you so much for coming on

[00:45:33] Amy McAllaster: Dylan.

[00:45:33] Thank you so much for having me.

[00:45:37] Dylan Bain: Thanks for listening. The conversation doesn’t end here. Please share the show with friends and make sure you keep up with all the latest updates on Instagram and threads at the Dylan Bain and dive deeper into the world of finance with me at Dylan Bain dot com, where you’ll find insights, resources, and strategies to reimagine your money story.